SKas

Endemism of Muscari dolichanthum

Hello SKas. Do you have any reference to back up the claim that Muscari dolichanthum is endemic to Russia? As far as I know it is present in Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia, but not necessarily at all in Russia. Best regards, Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 11:58, 20 June 2016 (UTC).

Hello Tommy. Here, for example one reference to the Red List of Russia: http://cicon.ru/muscari-dolichanthum.html. There it is written that it is an endemic of Western Caucasus. --SKas (talk) 13:05, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Here, please, one more reference: Caucasian Endemic Plants. --SKas (talk) 13:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, however the Red List of Russia web page also states "Распространение. […] Вне России — в Грузии (Абхазия: в окр. Гагры, Сухуми и на мысе Пицунда)" i.e. not endemic to Russia, but also present in Georgia (or Abkhazia, depending on political viewpoint).

According to this Kew Gardens link Muscari dolichanthum is distributör in Western Transcaucasia rather than Western Caucasus, which in that case might also include at least parts of Georgia and Armenia. Clearly, this issue is not as simple as we might first think... :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 14:55, 20 June 2016 (UTC).

The status of an endemism is established by the relevant organizations. Borders of an endemism don't coincide with frontiers. Therefore I don't see any problems in the matter. I have taken all pictures in category Commons:Category:Muscari dolichanthum in the territory of Adlersky District of Sochi in Russia. It is in several kilometers from Abkhazia. In the description of the File:Muscari dolichanthum.jpg you can see exact coordinates of the place where I have made pictures. Therefore truth is existence Muskary dolichanthum in Russia. Truth is also the status of this plant as endemic. It is confirmed by those references that has already brought earlier. Regards--SKas (talk) 18:30, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

You are of course right when you say that endemism have nothing to do with national borders. However, according to the Red List of Russia (as per your link above) Muscari dolichanthum is endemic to Russia and Georgia, so simply adding a {{Endemic|Georgia}} template to the page might solve the issue, if we remove the Category:Muscari (Armenia) and Category:Muscari (Azerbaijan) categories from the page as well.

By the way (and on another matter), do you have any information regarding the type locality of the species? Personally I have no access to Fl. URSS so I can't check for myself, and I haven't been able to find any other reference regarding type locality either. –Regards, Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 06:19, 21 June 2016 (UTC).

The English translation of the Flora of the U.S.S.R. is available on BHL here Muscari dolichanthum where it notes that the original description was made from the type grown at St Petersberg (Leningrad) Botanic Gardens. Andyboorman (talk) 15:31, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I am not an expert in the field of botany. IMO information on distribution of separate species of the plants and animals included in the Red List gives the Red List of Russia, and also Red Lists of certain regions of the Russian Federation. For example, Red List of Krasnodar Krai: http://mprkk.ru/redbook/. Thanks for discussion, regards. --SKas (talk) 07:24, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Hello! To me it is quite clear: If the species occurs outside of Russia, it is not "endemic to Russia". Anyway, being endemic to Russia does not tell too much, because of the immense size of the country, from Chukotka to the Baltic Sea. It could be a widespread species of Siberia or a local endemic of the North Caucasus. Depending on how you draw the borders between Europe and Asia, you may also call Muscari dolichanthum an "endemic to Asia", which also does not tell too much. In my opinion, if you really want to make use of the Template:Endemic, you may use it to express, that it is "endemic to Western Caucasus" or "endemic to Caucasia". Anyway, there was some discussion on the Template:Endemic at the Village Pump. However, this did not come to a conclusion, because of the otherwise heated atmosphere. Regards --Franz Xaver (talk) 11:14, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I am with Franz on this one. Endemism by political entity has little or no meaning on WS, but may have some interest in the same way as an image or vernacular names. The Template Endemic is, IMO, misused on WS and should be discouraged if not deleted and banned. If contributors want to use country categories, well that is different I guess. See here for an opinion. Andyboorman (talk) 15:31, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────┘ I have changed the template to "Endemic to Caucasus", at least for now – although in my opinion all "Endemic to…" templates should be deleted altogether. Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 00:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC).